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Feature: Games

'Phantom' game console is really a copyright protection device

By on July 10, 2003 (8:00:00 AM)

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- By <SLASH HREF="http://roblimo.com" ID="d6ce25c2cc3b127d06ee7072e4e96563" TITLE="" TYPE="LINK">Robin 'Roblimo' Miller</SLASH> -
Over the last few months computer and gaming-related publications) have gotten stacks of press releases from a company called <SLASH HREF="http://www.infiniumlabs.com/" ID="b80b2879914c8aab9209f6a658a6eea0" TITLE="" TYPE="LINK">Infinium Labs</SLASH> touting its upcoming <SLASH HREF="http://www.smalla.net/infofeed/2003/01/22/new_game_console_probably_phantom_by_inf.shtml" ID="58a13638981b8de18374869819ca6bb1" TITLE="" TYPE="LINK">Phantom game console</SLASH>. Some game industry insiders have derided the Phantom as vaporware, while others have laughed it off as "just another set-top box." The truth is, it is neither vaporware nor purely a set-top box, but part of an online PC game retailing system designed to protect game publishers' intellectual property while increasing profits for broadband ISPs. The promise for consumers is the availability of more games, for less money, than ever before. Will Infinium be able to pull this off? At least $25 million worth of venture capital is betting "yes."

Let's start by saying the console is real, not vaporware. I've seen a working prototype in action. Inside the spacy-looking case it's just a PC running Windows XP that has no CD or floppy drive, and uses a proprietary encryption scheme for data stored on its hard drive.

The specs for the final, finished version that will be shipped to end users are still in flux, but at the $400 price point mentioned by Infinium CEO Tim Roberts while he and I were looking at a mockup hidden away at respected (but low-profile) Robrady Design in Sarasota, Florida, it ought to be no big deal to deliver a 2GHz Mini-ATX PC with a wireless keyboard, mouse, and cool-looking game controller.

In fact, Roberts said during our chat, one of the reasons now is a better time than the height of the dot-boom to launch Infinium Labs is that "component prices have dropped" enough to make this computer feasible at $400 per unit, a`price even lower than the $600 to $700 he spoke of as recently as February.

Really, the only thing that differentiates this 'game console' from a standard, Windows-running PC is that it has no way to get data on or off of it except through a dedicated connection to Infinium Labs' own servers via your broadband ISP, plus the fact that if you try to open it up or modify it or grab data from the hard drive, bad things will happen, starting with violation of the terms under which you will lease or purchase the Phantom.

The console is only the tip of the netberg

Roberts' big previous venture was SAVVIS, a company he helped start that provided (and still provides) secure VPNs and other networking services. The company's motto, right below its name in the top left corner of its Web site's main page, is, "The Network That Powers Wall Street(tm)."

Roberts "retired" (at age 28) after SAVVIS's IPO in 2000. His one major post-SAVVIS business, an application hosting service called Intira, was acquired in October, 2001 by a company called divine (that filed for a Chapter 11 reorganization in February, 2003.)

Note that both of these companies delivered information and services via the Internet. Now think of Tim Roberts not only as a dot-com IPO guy but also as an ardent gamer and as a family man with small children who wants to be able to let his kids play lots and lots of computer games without worrying about whether they're getting exposed to excess gore or other adult-level themes, and think about the fact that, Roberts says, the average computer or consumer electronics store only carries around 200 games even though there are tens of thousands of titles available. And even though the majority of gamers may not be obsessed, anti-social pimple-facers who love shoot-em-ups above all else, most of those top 200 games are likely to be aimed at the hard-cores, not at small children or Roberts or his wife or other families like theirs.

Now imagine Roberts the family man and Roberts the expert on secure Internet information delivery occupying one single body, postulate a growing number of U.S. households with broadband Internet connections, with broadband ISPs hungry to deliver more services so they can grab more customers, especially services for which they can charge a premium over and above their basic monthly access fees -- services like downloadable games -- and suddenly you are looking at a potentially huge business opportunity.

Except for piracy.

Sure, the publishers of the tens of thousands of games that aren't sold at stores like Circuit City, Fry's or Best Buy would like to find a nice online way to distribute their products that wouldn't cost as much as traditional retail channels, but they worry about all the game-copiers and software sharers out there who would post any kind of 'unlock' keys needed to play downloadable versions of their offerings on the Internet, in effect making those games free to use for anyone who doesn't respect game developers' intellectual property rights.

So if you're Tim Roberts, you offer all those game publishers the same 99.999% security you offered Wall Streeters shipping critical financial data across the Net, and you claim you've gotten huge mega-interest from at least 500 game publishers, even though (for confidentiality reasons) Roberts says he can't tell us quite yet who any of these game publishers are, except to hint with one word: "Unreal!"

All game keys are held on Infinium Labs' servers, so even if the kind of people who do Xbox mods do their thing on a Phantom, they won't be able to play games for free, unless they're some of the many "play before you buy" trials Roberts plans to offer or some of the games that might be included with the $9.95 per month (or whatever; this is still being worked out) extra fee you pay your broadband ISP for access to Infinium Labs' game library, which Roberts confidently predicts will be one of the largest in the world, not only because the Phantom will play any game that will run on Windows XP, but because Infinium plans to offer developers help in porting games originally written for dedicated consoles to the Phantom (really Windows XP) platform.

There's no reason Infinium Labs shouldn't get hundreds or thousands of game developers to sign up; if the developers offer their games through this service and no one buys, they lose nothing, while, Roberts says, each paid download will net them more than they would get from a traditional in-a-box retail sale, assuming they could get their products on store shelves in the first place. In fact, there is no reason for Infinium Labs not to offer games from new, unknown developers much the way MP3.com and other online music services offer less-known musicians a distribution channel they didn't have before it became possible to download music over the Internet.

Except, of course, Infinium Labs hopes to eliminate the online file sharing that has spooked the music industry so badly.

I asked Roberts, more than once, how long he really expected it to take, in days or weeks, for his system's security to be broken. He responded by saying that Bunny Huang and other well-known security gurus are advising Infinium Labs, and pointed to his own experience providing secure Internet-based communications to the financial services industry.

And besides, Roberts believes, even if a few fringe people manage to grab a few games somehow, they aren't going to affect the vast majority of users, who will happily pay for their subscriptions.

The income stream(s)

The obvious, first one is subscriptions. Roberts told me it will probably take somewhere between 750,000 and one million subscribers to start turning a profit, based on $9.95 per month. Then there's advertising. Infinium Labs has a study in hand that claims ads connected to interactive game-type media are seven times as effective as ads displayed through passive media like TV and most Web sites. Then there's percentage fees (sales commissions, really) for "premium" games customers purchase through the system.

Roberts expects broadband ISPs to jump on this opportunity, especially since competition in this area is heating up and because his figures show that 50% of U.S. Internet-using households will have broadband connections by 2005. He also claims that the base cost of a broadband connection, to the supplier, is going to drop to about $7 per month, which is why this business area is so fiercely competitive.

Imagine Infinium Labs promotional brochures inserted in millions of cable and DSL Internet service bills. Roberts does. Surely enough subscribers will be willing to pony up another few bucks every month for a wide selection of games to float this venture, right? Even when the pie is split with game developers and broadband ISPs, there ought to be plenty for Infinium Labs, right?

And the customers Roberts is pursuing aren't teen-boy gamers with (he says) average incomes under $25,000 per year, but prosperous families that take in $50,000 or more and will happily pay $400 for a dedicated game machine (with some of that cost likely buried in the monthly subscription fee the same way cellular phone companies subsidize handset purchases)if only to keep game-playing kiddies away from mom and dad's computers -- and allow parents to give each kid his or her own login that only allows age-appropriate games.

As another sales kicker, how about chat and other interactive features that allow both child and adult users to communicate with other gamers? What about online player vs. player games, either as part of the basic subscription fee or as a premium service?

Once the basic mechanism is in place and has proven itself, why not add these other spiffs? You already have a game-on-demand online delivery system that competes with physical game CD/DVD sales, right? Sure, there are a few tiny problems here, like the fact that even though Roberts didn't want to talk about specific prices for specific games, they had better be a whole lot cheaper than the store-bought physical versions if only because you can't play them if you suddenly cancel your Phantom subscription or, although this was not made clear, perhaps even if you switch from a Phantom-partner broadband supplier to one that hasn't signed up with them.

As one industry observer pointed out when he first heard the Infinium Labs story, "You buy the console. You buy the games. Then you pay to play the games you bought on the console you bought. It's sort of like buying an arcade game but still having to put quarters in. And ads!"

But is this really any worse than paying for cable TV, finding that all the basic channels are full of ads, then paying extra for premium channels, and paying yet more for pay-per-view "events?" Lots of households do this without thinking about it. Why shouldn't a company like Infinium Labs extend the same business model to games and profit heavily by doing so? After all, the cost of server space and delivering all this data (securely) over a high-speed network has come down radically over the past few years, so the basic overhead of getting the system going can't possibly be as high as a cable TV channel startup, and we seem to see at least a few of those every year.

Getting it all up and running

The day I met with Roberts, he was uncharacteristically dressed in a suit and tie, nervously getting ready to meet with some of his investors. He's claiming $25 million in first-round funding so far, with more to come. He's renting high-end office space in Sarasota, Florida, and rapidly hiring both local staff and telecommuters.

Although the infamous phrase, "burn rate," was not uttered, it hung in the air over the conference table we borrowed at Robrady Design. Roberts' enthusiasm and drive was as strong as any I saw in Silicon Valley in 1998 or 1999, except that the costs of building an online business in Florida are a fraction of what it would cost to build the same business in Palo Alto.

The "race against time" factor is still there, though. Will Infinium Labs be able to attract enough ISP partners, enough game developers, enough subscribers, and enough advertisers to achieve a positive cash flow before the investment money runs out? That is always the big question in any kind of online service business.

Then there's the security question. Is that dedicated PC with so many features disabled really necessary? Couldn't a nearly-as-good level of anti-copying protection be achieved at much lower cost purely through software? Won't Palladium essentially make the Phantom unit itself obsolete? And couldn't the same privacy and control-over-your-own-equipment concerns that cause many consumers to balk at the idea of "Trusted Computing" that assumes consumers are not to be trusted become a significant sales barrier?

How about competition? Couldn't someone else come up with a slightly less secure but much less expensive online game delivery system that could be sold directly to consumers instead of through ISPs?

And thinking of competition, couldn't another company that is less security-obsessed, but charges lower commissions to game publishers, take away market share in a hurry, assuming game publishers are willing to accept (possibly) a small amount of file sharing in return for a higher share of net user fees -- and a potentially much larger market if this theoretical competitor didn't require customers to purchase (or possibly lease) a specialized, locked-down computer that costs as much as a "real" one that can also be used for kid homework, adult office work, and other non-game tasks?

The beta program may help Infinium Labs learn

The next stage in the rollout is a beta test that's supposed to start this fall with between 100 and 300 testers. "We want beta testers who are hackers and crackers who will try everything to get around our security," Roberts said when we talked.

Don't bother to apply. The company has over 17,000 applicants already, in large part due to these Slashdot mentions.

Perhaps in the course of the beta program the Phantom console itself will prove to be unnecessary. Or perhaps its cool looks will awe everyone who sees it in person so much that it'll become the next living room "must have" for prosperous suburban families.

For whatever it's worth, and no matter how the beta test and subsequent full-scale product rollout goes, Infinium Labs is pioneering a new way to hook game-eager customers up with sales-eager game developers. Whether this company succeeds or fails, the idea of online retail game delivery is sure to stay with us, and -- in one form or another -- will almost certainly replace the idea of PC and console games being physical things that are only sold in plastic packages through traditional retail channels.

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on 'Phantom' game console is really a copyright protection device

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Differences with palladium

Posted by: gerardm on July 10, 2003 07:06 PM
When you buy this box, you buy a gamebox. Which has a single function; gaming. When you buy a computer you buy the computer functionality to be determined by you. With a computer saddled with palladium you depend on the intentions of a third party re what happens on your computer. As palladium is essentially a black box, you do not know what happens there, you have no control and it prevents you from entering some area's of your computer. The other way round is not so certain.

They call it trustworthy computing. But when they do not trust me, can I trust them? And when I can trust them now, can I trust them in the future?

With a gamebox this issue is a non issue; you do not store personal sensitive information on a gamebox.

#

Re:Differences with palladium

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 10, 2003 07:50 PM
Besides that, what happens if they go out of business? Can you still play the games you purchased? If not, I guess you didn't really purchase them. If so, why constantly pay your monthy service charge? Pay for a month, buy your games, unsubscribe. If you have to pay to play, and you have to have an active account, what happens when you have ISP problems? Can't play your console?

This has "trouble" and "bad business plan" written all over it.

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Re:Differences with palladium

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 12:30 AM
Smells like DiVX to me.

We all know how well THAT went over.

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Re:Differences with palladium

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 31, 2003 11:28 AM
My first question with this system is, How do they expect to keep thier 'network' set for thier console only? Without that $400 initial cost, this wouldn't be a bad system.

I network my computers using a broadband connection. If I were to add a Phantom to my network, what's preventing me from hacking that sucker and ripping everything out of it? I know people who can hack the MMORPG servers and re-activate thier banned accounts. So honestly, what does this company expect to do against the onslaught of human inginuity?

And then once I've taken the information off, what's to keep me from handing it to a buddy of mine who writes software, and make it into a quick install file. So there you have it, being distributed again over a p2p network.

Overall, the SERVICE would be nice, but the platform needs to be eliminated. Any time you offer a connection to a server, someone will figure out how to take backdoors into them.

Take Win XP for example, even with the time and effort made to make it the most secure OS MS has ever made henseforth, we still had someone who found a backdoor, and thus a worm created to shut down you're PC.

I'm saying that they'd better make this foolproof to begin with, because starting out, they have no margin for error. If ANYONE cracks this, they're done in.

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Another ".com" waiting to bust?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 10, 2003 07:36 PM
Roberts told me it will probably take somewhere between 750,000 and one million subscribers to start turning a profit, based on $9.95 per month.

This doesn't look good to me. Seems they feel that they'll have to have something like $88,000,000 to $100,000,000 per year to break even? That's JUST TO BREAK EVEN!?! This certainly smells like a bad ".com" bussiness plan to me. Is it buying all the licences for the games?

Someone help me understand why he has to have that sort of cash flow, just to break even. After all, you can build rather large networks and even support them for a heck of a lot less than that. His console is pretty much a PC, not exactly huge costs there. Besides, the purchaser is paying his share. So, is the lion share going to pay for content? If he has to have that sort of cash flow to pay for content, that surely sounds like he isn't brokering very good deals to support his business model.

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Re:Another ".com" waiting to bust?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 10, 2003 09:20 PM
Your numbers are off by a factor of 10

$7,462,500 - 9,950,000

is not too much cashflow.

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Re:Another ".com" waiting to bust?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 10, 2003 10:28 PM
Are you sure? 1,000,000 subscribers by $10 per month by 10 months in the year<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-) is $100,000,000 per year, as the OP said. Which is a lot of money in anyone's books.

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Re:Another ".com" waiting to bust?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 23, 2003 09:54 AM
arent there 12 months in a year?

wouldn't that make it more like $89,550,000 to 119,400,000((750,000*9.95*12) to (1,000,000*9.95*12)) a year to break even? Who needs $120 million just to break even?

Or is this just the next wave of boiler room telemarketing gone horribly, horribly wrong?

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Re:Another ".com" waiting to bust?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 01:21 AM

You are calculating Monthly, Annual income would be close to 100 Million!

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Re:Another ".com" waiting to bust?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 02:13 AM
You seem to be saying that if they don't get that many subs, they'll lost $88-$100mil / year. This is not necessarily the case - many of their costs (licensing, for example, and likely bandwidth) are going to be (somewhat) variable

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Re:Another ".com" waiting to bust?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 03:25 AM
No, he's talking about break-even point. That covers his monthly nut AND the variable costs (which should slide along with suscribers, for the most part).

Basically, he's saying that he needs $8.8 - $10 million a month to operate. That's just to keep the doors open and run a network?!?! Buy new content? That still seems huge, especially if his subscription model licenses are based on the number of licenses in use. But wait...that doesn't make sense because YOU are paying for the licenses too! Wait, you're paying for the hardware too!

So basically, he saying he needs $8.8 - $10 million a month to run a network. Total BS!

This guy has scam-a-tron written all over him.

Yet another<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.dot bust which will make investors afraid. Then again, they have stupid written all over them if they give money to this. So, unless the devil is hidden away in the details, this is nothing but another divx failure, probably worse, just waiting to happen.

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Re:Another ".com" waiting to bust?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 08:45 AM
You didn't read the articale did you? The $9.95 was what the consume pays not what they get.

Here's an example of a quick breakup of $10:
*ISP kickback - $3
*Game Developers Kickback - $2
*Operational Overhead/Loss/Tax - $3
*Amount they get - $2

So what he's saying is he needs $2 million a month to break even.

Here's a quick breakup of some monthly costs:
*Bandwidth + Connection ~ $250,000
*50 Staff @ $3000 a month ~ $150,000
*General Expecnces (rent,insurance) ~ $300,000
*Marketing ~ $300,000
*RnD ~ $250,000
*Licences (exclusive content) ~ $250,000
Total = $1,500,000

That would mean he'd be making about $500,000 which isn't alot.

Remmeber things allways cost more than you think.

That's just a quick example but you get the idea.

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Re:Another ".com" waiting to bust?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 12:15 PM
LOL!

Are you for real? Look at everything you posted and think about it.

LOL!

In the mean time, I'll safely ignore this posting.

LOL!

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Re:Another ".com" waiting to bust?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 23, 2003 09:59 AM
It might interest you to know that the infinium labs' "lab" is just a 100ftx100ft room with a desk, two phones, and no furniture. It's also in a strip mall in the florida keys. ( located at 5380 Gulf of Mexico Dr. Longboat Key, Fl 34228 )
in case any of you wanna go see for yourself.

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a real video game site

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 14, 2003 04:26 AM

Breaking Even

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 24, 2003 01:26 AM
He never said he needed that much PER YEAR. Only that much to break even with initial production costs/salaries etc. I can easily see it costing that much.

But I still don't like the whole Idea of not retaining a physical copy of my game. Hrmmph.

#

I'm sorry

Posted by: Alex Valentine on July 10, 2003 11:41 PM
But this business plan is riddled with holes, I really don't see any way this company could turn a profit. They don't have enough push to get any major game companies to develop for their platform and the Xbox compatability will tie the whole platform up in legal challenges by MS (preliminary injunction on sales anyone?) Being VC funded doesn't mean shit, Dr. Koop and Space.com were VC funded along with the other 1000<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.bombs of the late 90's. While it is impressive that they received so much funding for a 1/2 baked idea in this current enviroment, finding a few suckers among the 1000's in the VC community is not that hard if your determined, have a good pitch, and startup experience on the resume.

#

You dont need major companies.

Posted by: HanzoSan on July 12, 2003 02:15 PM


Theres plenty of new companies who want to make a name for themselves.

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they're f*****ked

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 12:44 AM
that pennyarcade thing showed just what they're up to.. out of their minds, or just camping for investors.

bad for the investors though..

the thing is, the games companies won't get really enthuastic about a project to sell yet another EXTRA pc to pc owners, and to tweak their games for that and the broadband media(hey, ever wondered if it would be cool to download 5gigs the console games are starting to take over the network just when you wanted to play? with 'broadband' of 25kbyte/s...).

they're trying to sell a closed pc where a software package might be all that's needed. heck, there would be market for decent cheap subscripting of games over the network. but why on earth they want to get in the ring with xbox, gamecube and ps2 and use microsofts system for that too? like, wtf? yascd.

and since it's a 'full pc', limiting the programs to run to their approved won't mean good sales(you wouldn't be able to substitute your pc with it), and if they do allow anything to be ran without too much thought the whole 'secure' system is fucked..

all it screams is HYPE HYPE HYPE BUZZWORDS HYPE HYPE MONEY TO BE MADE REALLY HYPE HYPE.

#

games don't come in boxes...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 12:48 AM


many people copy games just because the convience, and if it's a really good game they go and buy the box because they want the box, support and doohickeys.

but it's really easier to d'l a disk image and mount it by software than ride the bus to the shop, stroll around thinking which gamebox hype to beliece and ride the bus back and find out the copyprotection sucks, the game is buggy and the box lied about 'open ended'.

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Re:games don't come in boxes...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 25, 2003 01:27 PM
Heh...that whole last bit about the buggy games reminded me of the whole "Enter The Matrix" Fiasco...I actually bought it....trusting the developers to give me a good game. Alas i was totally wrong, so many bugs made it unenjoyable, and it was TOO short...

That was the last time i trusted developer hype...if i see a game now...i'll probably pirate first...buy later...if i only play it for 10minutes and give up...then screw the game, i'll break the discs and delete the image.

If a demo comes out i'll get that rather than the game.

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Re:games don't come in boxes...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 29, 2003 04:00 AM
Yes, I agree. I myself have downloaded quite a few games over p2p networks, only to play them for a few minutes and forget about them. This reminds me of the early to mid 90s when there was this thing called shareware, and everyone was playing the demos. Only problem was nobody ever made it back to the store to buy the game.

Then enter Phantom.

Download the demo. Like it = download it.
Don't like it= don't waste your time.

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So in other words...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 12:50 AM
You could break the encryption scheme with software, and take your windows XP box connect it to their servers and play all you want. Yep, this is a winner. If you want to solve piracy its an elementary equation. You make paying for the games cheaper than copying them. Just like music cds. If the price is right people wont go through the trouble of copying. I smell rent seeking on the horizon my friends, well that and bullshit.

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Sounds awful!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 02:04 AM
Oh my god, I'll never buy one!!!!

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Mods

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 02:18 AM
I guess they arent considering mods as well. A large part of games' success today is based off of mods. Once a game's life bleeds away, a person can just do some searching on the net and BAM, they can play their game again in a new scenario, or an alltogether now experience. I dont think this being missing will be a sell point with the PC friendly crowd.

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Re:Mods

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 02:21 PM
The people in it just for the money don't want you to keep playing the same old game, they want you to buy new ones!

#

it sounds like a better webtv

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 02:30 AM
it sounds like a better webtv

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400$?

Posted by: Joseph Cooper on July 11, 2003 03:14 AM
That's absurd. It's going to fail.

Question; How do other game console developers make systems with equivalant or better hardware than a PC for 200$? (XBox, PS2 and Gamecube were all a lot less than their PC counterparts when released.)

Simple; They sell them at a loss. On average, they lose about 100$ per console when they sell the things, and they have special contracts with suppliers to get parts cheap. Plus there are many corners that can be cut when you don't need a huge OS like WindowsXP. That's why the Dreamcast only had Windows CE, and the PS3 may run Linux.

How to make up for the loss? By selling accesories, royalties for game licenses, development software and equipment, games, and other sources.

My point; Their business plan is going to run them into the ground. No matter how good the system is, peopel are not going to pay 400$ for a game system. That's the bottom line because Stone Cold Dan Cooper (that's me) said so. Also, because companies have tried in the past and failed.

Remember the Sega Saturn? That was a flop. 400$. The Playstation? That never caught on until they dropped the price. That window of time where it was too expensive for anyone sane was long enough for Nintendo to finish teh N64 and make it good enough to compete despite teh fact taht they crippled it by insisting on proprietary storage. By the time the N64 finally came out, PSX was still getting started because of it's outlandish price.

Forget about Windows XP, the size, the lack of games, etc. No matter what, at 400$, this thing is going nowhere. NOWHERE. Vaporware or not.

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Minor corrections

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 12, 2003 11:38 PM
The Dreamcast didn't run on Windows CE anymore than your home PC does. A few PC ports had Windows CE on the game discs themselves, but Windows CE was not built into the hardware, nor did most games use it. Likewise, it's extraordinarily unlikely that the PS3 will run on "Linux".

Furthermore, by the time of the N64 release, the PSX had several million units already sold while the Saturn was at about half a million. Sega dropped that Saturn's price to match that of the PSX and even tossed in free games -- Sega just had lost customers due to their previous business decisions (the 32X and Sega CD, in particular) and did a poor job marketing the new system in the US. The PSX's strong software support solidified the Sony lead.

That said, the Phantom is unlikely to gain any substantial marketshare -- not solely because of the cost, but because of the support (or, more precisely, the lack thereof). Furthermore, the pay-to-play model has done abyssimally poorly in the console marketplace.

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Re:400$?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 28, 2003 08:00 AM
No...

Game companies don't lose 100 fucking dollars per system being put out. That's what we call "retarded".

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Will Fail

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 03:46 AM
Yep I agree it is simply too much!
and really to a consumer there really isn't
much difference. Gaming is Gaming as long as the Gameplay is good and excellent grahpics.
What you think MS, Sony
and Nintendo (well maybe not Nintendo so
they stated in the past) aren't moving
more aggressively into the online market.
They slightly do have more $$$ then this lamo
startup.

A note to there idea of having tier pricing!
Not good, uhmmmm why do u think there r so
many ways to hack Satellite and Cable. Its
just bloody to much. Come on now do we really
need more bills, need to figure out an integrated/
invisible payment plan, see next section.

A solution would be not only 2 lower the prices but work with a cable/satellite provider and bundle the console and service together. So to
the average joe he/she doesn't really notice
he/she is paying for the service every month.

Of course,
this is easier said then done. But it might give
them that edge they need over the big guys.

#

400 $ - with winxp ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 03:54 AM
Well I doubt that Microsoft will give them a bargain on their windows XP licences, since they are in direct compedition. A licence of Windows XP Familly costs what, about 100 $. A Pro licence about 200 $. So that leaves only 200$-300$ for the hardware.

Not a chance in the world this will work out. If only they where using Linux...

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Re:400 $ - with winxp ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 23, 2003 09:57 AM
When I first read about the Phantom I could have sworn that they claimed they were going to use Linux. I could be mistaken though...

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Re:400 $ - with winxp ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 23, 2003 03:23 PM
You're thinking of the Indrema project which died before release a couple of years ago.

Putting this thing on Linux would be sensible in terms of initial cost, but Linux isn't exactly renowned for its abilities as a games platform.

All the big PC games are on the Windows platform and in order to entice publishers over, they need to make porting as easy as possible for them.

Still the point is moot as this thing has a completely idealistic business model that goes by the assumption that video game buyers are both moneyed and incredibly stupid.

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Re:400 $ - with winxp ?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 25, 2003 04:21 PM
As a gamer, I can say quite comfortably that I am nowhere near moneyed, and I am not what I'd call incredibly stupid.

Just mostly stupid.

But still, no money. That's the hang-up I keep seeing. When you've got to sell, what, a million units to cover production costs, you're betting that a lot of people will want to buy an extra PC and subscription service to play games they then have to buy on a system withOUT the resolution capability (we're talking TV MONITORS still) of the PCs they already have with the same games installed! What?

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Help me build a "Staging Server"

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 05:06 AM
So lets see how long it takes to build a staging server that can talk to the Phantom. We can then just reroute the Phantom (with a simple router) to connect to the staging server and set up our games locally. This way we can control the content... just a thought.

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Re:Help me build a "Staging Server"

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 05:38 AM
actualy thats a pritty cool ides! I wonder if the same consept would will work on Longhorn(pladium)

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What's the Killer App?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 05:40 AM
I thought Xbox would fail. Until I played Halo.
All that matters is the games.

<A HREF="http://www.strater.ca/" TITLE="strater.ca">strater</a strater.ca>

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Re:What's the Killer App?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 06:30 AM
I think this is great. I agree the content is everything. But it drives me crazy that the XBOX and other consoles have such a shitty game selection. I would buy one of these for the convenience of not having cd's laying around and also games on demand. I also want a high end system for my high end entertainment center that will hook to my AV unit with optical connections. I like the idea of having games for my family, friends and little ones and not just shoot em ups. This is a huge market since it is obviously not addressing the hard core gamer and is going for the consumer electronic and family purchase. I believe this will be very successful, why Xbox didn’t think of this; instead they stole the game developer’s m-player lobby advertising from these already starving companies. I think it is a great way to expand the shelf life of games and offer the convenience to non-tech gamers with the horsepower to make it a great experience.


  A faithful Phantom Believer!

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Re:What's the Killer App?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 06:54 AM
The sad part about the X-Box is that Halo is the only good game that people name..no way in hell I would pay 200 dollars for a game console just to play one game..

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Re:What's the Killer App?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 13, 2003 10:48 PM
i did paid £200 to get ps2 and gta vice city

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Make that two games...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 23, 2003 05:15 AM
You forgot KOTOR. Though my Star Wars loyalty isn't quite worth shelling out that much cash for one game.

~Nate

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Re:What's the Killer App?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 23, 2003 10:24 AM
GTA VC is also out on PC now...

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Re:What's the Killer App?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 23, 2003 10:27 AM
And Halo is hitting PCs pretty soon, too.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P

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Re:What's the Killer App?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 24, 2003 02:29 AM
There's more than just Halo, though I will admit that it's the best. DOA3, Panzer Dragoon, KOTOR... they're all good games. I had serious doubts about the XBox, but they release just enough awesome titles to stay above the surface.

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Re:What's the Killer App?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 25, 2003 04:30 PM
No, that's FOUR awesome titles, something that still doesn't justify Xbox to me. Sure more games are coming out. But where is Xbox's Final Fantasy sequel, even SaGa sequel, Chrono sequel, Suikoden sequel, GTA sequel, Driver sequel, even Mario sequel, Mario Cart sequel, Metroid sequel, Zelda sequel, Mega Man sequel... see what I'm getting at? What we have in Sony and Nintendo are a lot of console-specific games and even license companies.

And Xbox has Bungie! And Halo 2! YAAY!

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Re:What's the Killer App?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 27, 2003 06:04 AM
GTA and Driver are coming to X-Box.
I don't play that many games per year, so the titles that are available are perfect for me. I don'tm spend more than a grand per year, and X-box gives maximum performance and gameplay for my money.

But I still play my Dreamcast more than anything else...funny how much more entertaining a 'dead' system is than the other systems. Gamecube just got Sonic Adventure! Yowza

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Divx?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 06:10 AM
Didn't someone try this with DVDs - you buy the box, you buy the DVD, you pay to watch the DVD? I don't see this taking off at all...

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Does this remind anyone of Divx?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 06:25 AM
Does this remind anyone of Divx?

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Re:Does this remind anyone of Divx?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 13, 2003 12:17 AM
No it doesn't.

Divx is still coming around.

DVD players are coming out with Divx MPEG-4 support, all that needs to be done is marketing and lower prices.

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Re:Does this remind anyone of Divx?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 15, 2003 03:56 AM
Not DivX (the video compression codec) - idiot - the original Divx - pay per view DVD.

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sega tv

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 06:44 AM
now you all remember when sega came out with sega tv that you could try out all the newest games on cause it was an online service. Before the internet came along. Well that flopped and this will too. People like owning their games. No matter how cheap it is to rent them, its cheaper still to buy them.

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How long before a way around protection

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 07:12 AM
There defences will not be perfect. There will be a way around just it will be just like bomb disarming dark room a blade able to cut though the case slowly and get disable the entry protection then work on the board. Now that is if they have been really well defended. Now lets take it linux will want to run on this box. The rule number one for linux developers is if it is hardware we want to run on it. Basicly they have a problem linux developers will not be behind in pulling the box appart to find out how to get in even if they have to send the box to a country that there are not protections from doing so.

Basicly it is time the XBox has failed so will this every protection system in history has a flaw some where.

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This company will flop just like St. Louis

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 07:31 AM
The following are my opinions and expressions of my freedom of speech.

I wouldn't trust a word Mr. Shambro or Roberts says.
Shambro is the former CEO of several failed companies, the biggest of which he drove directly into the ground StreamSearch.com in St. Louis Missouri. Blew through 40 Million like it was candy. Should have asked him about the europe Miami cigarette scam him and his ol cronie from Savvis, Tim Roberts, I am sure the IRS or customs would like to talk to them.

They are true masters at obtaining massive amounts of venture capital then spending the money in Vegas, expensive cars and boats.
If you don't believe me read the articles.
http://www.diplomaticplanet.net/dcomm/intrvw/sham<nobr>b<wbr></nobr> ro.html

http://digitalcoast.venturereporter.net/issues/dc<nobr>w<wbr></nobr> 12132000.html#Headline3201

http://comments.fuckedcompany.com/phpcomments/ind<nobr>e<wbr></nobr> x.php?newsid=22079&sid=1&page=1&parentid=0&crapfi<nobr>l<wbr></nobr> ter=1

Shambro is a real "visionary" too bad no one else sees a need for the crap he comes up with.
My bet is this company goes under in less then 2 years, that's about the life span of everyone of Shambro's and Roberts former companies.

I can not believe these guys are still around, they should be in jail with the Enron crew.

Wait till this information get to the former investors, and people in St. Louis.

You can run but you can't hide boyz.

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Re:This company will flop just like St. Louis

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 08:10 AM
That is the funniest thing I have ever read, a angry engineer obviously who was overpaid and upset when he lost his job and realized he was worth 1/5th of what he was making.

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Re:This company will flop just like St. Louis

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 14, 2003 12:37 PM
Sorry, but I have to correct you. The funniest thing that you've ever read will be re-reading your posting after doing a little research on these 2 fine individuals. But, of course, you are probably so short-sighted and lazy that you won't bother to take the time to back up your opinions with a little reality.

I come from the old Bridge days - the days when Savvis was a part of Bridge, and I think that I have some first-hand knowlege of how these guys operate. I just hope that you've invested some money, so that you can loose it all and thereby become more informed how it feels to get ripped off. (And, before you can ask, I did NOT invest in Savvis. I just know a lot of people who did...)

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Re:This company will flop just like St. Louis

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 14, 2003 12:30 PM
Your comments about Shambro are, no doubt, correct, but you forgot Mr. Roberts "fine" record.

Savvis IPO'ed at somewhere around $24.00 a share, and never looked back. It's been de-listed by NASDAQ because the price has been below $1.00 for over a year. I know several dozen people who jumped on the Savvis bandwagon and have lost their shirts, not to mention much of their retirement savings.

I remember, just about a year ago, the Savvis sales staff going on a "business meeting" in St. Croix. All expenses paid !!! All of this under the umbrella of Mr. Roberts wonderful leadership. All of this happening while the stock prices does a nose dive. All of this happening while trusting investors are losing thousands of dollars - and I'm not talking about professional investors, just regular people like you and me.

Yes, Mr. Roberts is NOT the type of person that I would trust to handle my money in a VC enterprise. Like the saying goes "Let the buyer beware". The people who were foolish enough to invest in a venture run by these 2 extortionists deserve to have their money taken. I just hope that none of the "little guys" get taken in....

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Re:This company will flop just like St. Louis

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 17, 2003 02:15 AM
Do you have personal knowledge of this? I thought Savvis was sold by Roberts in 96 or 98? When did he actually sell to Bridge and when did he actually leave Savvis?

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Re:This company will flop just like St. Louis

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 30, 2003 03:54 AM
$25 million? That doesn't even get you parked near the stadium much less in the ballpark. The console market is massive and it won't be long till the gaming press strings up these weasels.

I've got an idea:

Infinium Labs should give away 3,250 Phantoms to anyone who signs up for their mailing list. They don't have to buy anything, just sign up.

Infinium Labs should host a $700,000+ party at the Playboy Mansion to celebrate the release of the Phantom.

Infinium Labs should rent out House of Blues and hire Godsmack to play.

Oh wait...none of that worked at any of their old companies, why would it work for Infinium?

Investors really should do their homework.

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Re:This company will flop just like St. Louis

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 24, 2003 03:15 PM
Infinium Labs main facility is a 100ft x 100ft shop in a strip mall in Florida, with a single desk and no furniture this is nothing more than a scam to get investor money. 5380 Gulf of Mexico Dr. Longboat Key, Fl 34228 theres the address feel free to check them out.

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Re:This company will flop just like St. Louis

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 24, 2003 02:33 AM
One thing to say...

You make good points, but you may wish to bear in mind that the internet is not america. Your freedom of speech doesn't apply.

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Re:This company will flop just like St. Louis

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 25, 2003 02:38 AM
Actually since Infintum whatever is an American company they could in theory sue for Libel or Slander if someone made false accusations about them, thus the earlier comment about the first ammendment was warranted

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Re:This company will flop just like St. Louis

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 26, 2003 02:22 PM
That's one of the most idiotic things I've read in the past week. The internet does not confer any "rights" upon anyone, nor does it restrict anybody. However, many sites, depending upon where they are based, do confer rights or restrict freedoms, depending upon the hosting country of the domain and/or company.

Get a clue and wise up. Posting the crap you do doesn't make you look smarter, it just proves how stupid you are. (And that you have anti-American sentiments, and ar jealous of Americans because of it).

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The Phantom is genuis!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 08:16 AM
I think this concept is unbelievable. Definitly fixed all the problems that MP3.com and the publishing industry is facing. And I agree with the reply to the post that sounds like a angry laidoff employee. My comment is go get a job and stop playing games so you can stop being so bitter.

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Re:(paid comment)

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 13, 2003 06:48 PM
I read the article. It was logical but even while reading you could tell there were many issues that would be solvable.

I read these comments. Almost everyone makes a completely VALID point why this will not work. At least five MAJOR kill points I have read thus far.

The idea is great in theory. But READ THE COMMENTS. IT IS OBVIOUS THAT ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO SUCCEED.

I question whether that poster has invested interest or is just stupid.

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Not for gaming pros

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 09:18 AM
The Phantom is aimed at casual gamers, not the 'traditional gamers' that are normally targetted by games companies (ie. most of us).

My partner couldn't give a stuff about Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Halo, or any of the other mandatory 3D games that are out there these days.

You know what she wants to play? Frogger, Wonder Boy, maybe Final Fight or Double Dragon. Easy stuff that you can pick up in 3 minutes flat. And I bet that there's thousands of people out there who'd pay $5 a game to get access to that back catalog.

-- GuruJ.

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Re:Not for gaming pros

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 10:38 AM
But this is nuts: simple games like those you mentioned just DON'T EVOLVE (where's 'Frogger 2929'?) and hardly require today's latest hardware, let alone that of 10 years ago. If people want to play those games, they use a gameboy, pick them out of the bargain bin at Bestbuy, or download them for free. Yes, the simple games genre is perhaps underexploited, but is the Phantom going to bring with it the so-called real gaming revolution whereby games are family entertainment, not the obsessions of young males? Even if it could, isn't the point of the Phantom that it comes with a vast built-in title catalog and thus doesn't need much developer support?

People hold up Will Wright's stuff as harbingers of the ever-comming great cross-over, but those games are at least as much baroque timesinks as the usual 'serious' game genres. Maybe we can conceive of a gaming experience which is both deep and casual (assuming this isn't a contradiction), but how would the Phantom fill that demand better than the established consoles?

Everyone who has broadband has a computer, the hardware situation of which is getting simpler and cheaper by the year. The idea of broadband game delivery, whether subscription pay-per-play or pay-per-title or whatever, is really not a bad idea at all: maybe Steam and its ilk will help small develpers distribute games at higher royalty rates, and isn't Amazon already doing internet distribution? But see, its already covered already and with no 400 dollar box to buy or extra broadband service charge, no clumsy ISP business partnerships.

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Re:Not for gaming pros

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 01:45 PM
You miss my point. The people targeted by the Phantom have no interest in buying the latest $70 games, or even in going down to EB to buy a GameBoy.

They want to be able to download a fun $5 game for 24 hours, just like a pay-per-view movie, without ever leaving the comfort of their home.

I imagine the Phantom will be bundled in 'special' cable deals at a nominal $5-$10/month additional charge, rather than a $400 hit. This makes it a far more attractive option.

-- GuruJ.

PS. I agree with you about The Sims. Its only real breakthrough was to attract a 50% female demographic. In all other ways, it is comparable to other conventional games.

PPS. Check out Frogger/Frogger 2 released in the past couple of years by Infogrames/Atari. They're actually quite good!

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Re:Not for gaming pros

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 25, 2003 12:37 AM
You are so blind.

First of all, I don't know HOW you know that so many people want to download a fun game for 24 hours. I seriously doubt the Phantom will be at a monthly fee in addition to the subscription service. Then Infinium would have to go get the Phantoms back, and they probably need the money FAST anyhow.

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Cellphone gaming for the casual gamers!

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 12, 2003 05:28 AM
It's a nice idea that's two years too late. I already cellphones
that provide a similar service. Sure the games are crude, mostly
java-based stuff. The future of downloadable gaming is in
wireless devices. For the gaming addict, only a full-blown
console will do. For the casual gamer, nothing beats fiddling
with your cellphone while waiting for the light to turn green or
the train to reach its destination.

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Re:Not for gaming pros

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 23, 2003 01:22 PM
That might be... but a $400 initial payout will discourage this. $5-$15 a month to play fun, "lite", easy games? That's reasonable. A huge down-payment like this for little games isn't reasonable. You could pick up an old console and more games than you could ever play for under $400. Hell, you can even get a GBA and a whole lot of games for under $400.

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What about preserving the games.

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 11:07 AM
Assuming that some sort of copy restrictive technology does succeed (both technically in that noone is able to crack it and in the marketplace). While I doubt Phantom is going to succeed (as others mentioned, too many problems getting other companies on boad), other things like Palladium or a super crippled PS3 or Xbox2 would likely succeed in the marketplace.

And 10 years later, when the company pulls the plug on the server (to force people to migrate to its newer, more expensive Phantom2, or just because it went out of business), what will happen to all the games. Assuming it isn't cracked, the games will cease to exist.

At best, some people will have logged the packets sent to/from the game machine by routing the broadband connection through a personal router in the hope that quantum computing (or some other non-deterministic Turing machine) will allow the cryptography to be cracked and an emulator written in the future.

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You are all a bunch of frickin' crybabies

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 12:33 PM
I can't believe the things I'm reading in these comments. Do any of you even know what the hell you're talking about? Have any of you ever tried to get a company or product off the ground? Do you have any concept of how difficult it is to raise capital to even get to the stage that Phantom appears to be right now? Have you ever done anything in your pathetic little lives to actually make a difference in the world?

Where is your sense of adventure? Where is your faith in innovation? If people like Henry Ford didn't advance the automobile, you'd be still riding a bicycle. If the Apple II, the Tandy TRS-80 or Commodore weren't introduced to the consumer marketplace, you wouldn't have electronic games to play or to bitch about. And better yet, if Licklider didn't write his Intergalactic Network concept in '62, you wouldn't even have a place to post your stupid comments.

The next time you visit Disneyland, think about this, Walt Disney went bankrupt 7 times in his career trying to give you the "Happiest Place on Earth". But, he did it. Why? Because he had a dream. He wanted to make a difference.

I applaud these guys for their sheer balls. Something I'm sure most of you don't have. They are trying to do something to make your lives different and hopefully better. No, they won't end world hunger or stop any Middle East crisis, but they just might help to give developers a new, wider and safer distribution source. This will in turn allow you losers to go and waste your lives away playing games while others are do something constructive with their lives like providing thousands of jobs for people who love to be innovative.

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Re:You are all a bunch of frickin' crybabies

Posted by: Joseph Cooper on July 11, 2003 01:14 PM
One question; Have you?

You're taking this awy too seriously. Anyway, wether they have "the balls" or not (you're such a redneck if you say that) they're still making the same bad decisions that have killed companies before them. They're making multiple bad decisions that have killed companies before them. And there is nothing wrong with voicing our opinions, that's what the forum is for.

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Re:You are all a bunch of frickin' crybabies

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 11, 2003 06:30 PM
I must say that I agree. Especially since there are a number of people on this site that think give-stuff-away-for-free is a good businessmodel. Atleast these people charge for their product.

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Re:You are all a bunch of frickin' crybabies

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on July 16, 2003 11:38 PM
Who-all thinks that?

Even modern linux companies (such as my last employer -- and yes, they're still around) don't hold give-stuff-away-for-free as their primary business model, and if you think otherwise then you don't understand the intricacies of making money in our niche.

The giving-stuff-away bits generally involve cutting costs required to profit through some separate means, rather than being a method to profit in and of themselves.

Example: I work at a medical software company. Our development workstations run GNOME on AFS. I make a patch to help GConf play better, I send it in to the maintainer -- "give it away" to the community -- so that I don't have to repatch the next version that comes out, thus saving the company money. Think of this on a far larger scale and you understand part of why so many profit-driven companies "give away" parts of the software they've written.

- Charles Duffy

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Re:You are all a bunch of frickin' crybabies

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on August 24, 2003 02:41 AM
They WILL fail. Why? Because these 'crybabies' are the market. And no one trusts it. If everyone thinks your console is going to bomb, then they're not going to buy. And if they're not going to buy, it WILL bomb. That's even seperate from the glaring holes in security, and the fact that every sign points to it being vaporware.